The Manfred Man always struck me as a solution in search of a problem. If we’re going to define extra long games as 13 innings or more, there were 37 games that went 13 innings or longer in 2019 and 39 games that fit the bill in 2018. Thats less than 2 all right% of the total games.
I understand in the NHL or the NFL where they alter overtime rules, because of the conditions of those sports. They’re both collision sports and injuries are much more frequent than in baseball.
Also, why not try out alternative solutions first? If a team goes 12 innings or more in a game, they get two extra roster spots to use on pictures for a week. To lessen the blow. Why not try something like that? Rather than muck with the game?
Also extra innings aren’t the cause of an increase in arm injuries. It’s increased velocity and spin.
Thanks for reading and your take Arky. I am getting a sense that starting in the 10th inning is the biggest issue. And arm injuries are not the biggest impact of extra inning games. Blowing out your bullpen for days is more problematic.
I detest this rule. It's an arbitrary gimmick that has turned these games into a carnival. Why not have the players compete in a dunk tank or balloon darts to decide it, speed up the whole affair, "save arms" and allow fans to get back to Candy Crush?
BTW, wasn't that the reason we draped the stadiums in netting that now regularly interferes with foul balls despite assurances to the contrary? No more Jeter into the stands in these enlightened times. Some fan glued to their phone might get hurt. Problem solved. Thanks Uncle Rob.
How about teams build cell phone lots so you don't have to go to the game at all...just sit in a lot near your home and watch on your phone with the kids for as long as your diminished attention span can take it? Can leave anytime you desire...just like at the stadium in the old days. Let's make baseball the new drive-in movie for a night out with the kids. Fan-tastic!
Or, how about this. Why not use the same "logic" as this rule and employ a 5-run rule after 7 innings? Just like softball. That would shorten things up too...right? I mean, if that's your goal, let's go all in.
Oh, and have all these shortened extra innings really saved arms? I've seen no data to suggest even a correlation and arm injuries continue to rise. Thus, one of the largest excuses for this abomination - player safety - is entirely vaporus it turns out.
The fact that this is not used in the postseason says it all. "Well, we certainly don't want to use THIS arbitrary gimmick when the games really matter...right? I mean, we"ll leave the zero impact shift ban in place, but a runner on 2nd is simply a bridge too far!"
Look, this was ostensibly introduced as a temporary risk reduction mechanism during the pandemic. It's expiration date has expired and it's time to rid this blight from the game and employ a new mission statement moving forward... leave-the-game-alone.
So much deserving of comment! First off, I couldn’t disagree more (cut to Kevin Pollak - “What does that mean, you strenuously object?”) I certainly appreciate the fact you made the only reasonable argument in favor, which is saving pitchers’ arms. The problem is that it doesn’t seem to be actually doing that. MLB’s own report on the topic shows a very obvious and extended spike in Tommy John surgeries starting immediately after the 2020 implementation.
Admittedly, most of the increase is from the minors, but nevertheless it certainly doesn’t appear that reducing extra inning pitches is doing much here.
Aesthetically the free runner is just an abomination, and in my 55+ years going to baseball games, I’ve never once thought the experience could be improved by spending less time at the ballpark. The days that I inevitably remember most have always been double-headers (RIP) and extended extra inning affairs. What a way to spend a full day!
Thank you John and thanks for joining the conversation. Baseball is so differently played today than it was 55 years ago. Shorter games mean fresher bullpens (than would be the case without the shorter games), and a better brand of baseball results over the long haul. Eventually there will be a generation of ballplayers who never played anything but extra innings without a baserunner placed instead of having earned the base. But at least in the playoffs and 18 inning game can happen!
Thanks Doug! I expected that there were many who don't feel the way I do. Your point is right about 'how did he get to second base'? It's the thing that bothers everyone (including me) most about the rule. I don't have a fix either and as most do, am at least grateful that the playoffs are played straight up! As a side note it's interesting that fans don't seem to feel the outcomes are skewed with the runner on second. It just feels weird. Maybe pushing it to start in the 11th inning would be a middle ground?
I am still a bit torn about this rule. I understand the desire to avoid an interminable tie-fest but I also loved how it played out in last year’s World Series or in my childhood during a Reds-Mets game at Shea Stadium. My biggest issue is not about the time, it is that someone gets on base and you cannot explain how they got there. Something eats at me that he did not earn his way on. It is so hard to hit in this game or just get on base. Extras not only make it easy, they make it an entitlement.
I support the pace of game initiatives and they have been successful so I tip my cap. The extra inning zombie runner is akin to playing football and it all coming down to the kicker. We accept that as part of football but it is like two different sports happened in the same game. :)
I don’t have a fix so I roll with it but after all these years, it is still strange to me.
Harvey Haddix pitched 9 perfect innings against the Braves in 1959. The game was a 0-0 tie. So, he came out and pitched the 10th. The 11th. The 12th. All perfect. He lost his no-hitter, and the game, in the 13th.
You wanted him to start the 10th with a man on 2nd, and maybe lose the game on 2 fly outs. Bah!!!
It's different in Japan. The maximum number of innings a game can last is 12. If neither teams has the lead, the game ends in a tie. Honestly, I prefer that to the zombie runner.
The Manfred Man always struck me as a solution in search of a problem. If we’re going to define extra long games as 13 innings or more, there were 37 games that went 13 innings or longer in 2019 and 39 games that fit the bill in 2018. Thats less than 2 all right% of the total games.
I understand in the NHL or the NFL where they alter overtime rules, because of the conditions of those sports. They’re both collision sports and injuries are much more frequent than in baseball.
Also, why not try out alternative solutions first? If a team goes 12 innings or more in a game, they get two extra roster spots to use on pictures for a week. To lessen the blow. Why not try something like that? Rather than muck with the game?
Also extra innings aren’t the cause of an increase in arm injuries. It’s increased velocity and spin.
Thanks for reading and your take Arky. I am getting a sense that starting in the 10th inning is the biggest issue. And arm injuries are not the biggest impact of extra inning games. Blowing out your bullpen for days is more problematic.
Appreciate the purist POV Grant. I would guess that you feel similarly about the NHL using the shootout to determine a winner.
I detest this rule. It's an arbitrary gimmick that has turned these games into a carnival. Why not have the players compete in a dunk tank or balloon darts to decide it, speed up the whole affair, "save arms" and allow fans to get back to Candy Crush?
BTW, wasn't that the reason we draped the stadiums in netting that now regularly interferes with foul balls despite assurances to the contrary? No more Jeter into the stands in these enlightened times. Some fan glued to their phone might get hurt. Problem solved. Thanks Uncle Rob.
How about teams build cell phone lots so you don't have to go to the game at all...just sit in a lot near your home and watch on your phone with the kids for as long as your diminished attention span can take it? Can leave anytime you desire...just like at the stadium in the old days. Let's make baseball the new drive-in movie for a night out with the kids. Fan-tastic!
Or, how about this. Why not use the same "logic" as this rule and employ a 5-run rule after 7 innings? Just like softball. That would shorten things up too...right? I mean, if that's your goal, let's go all in.
Oh, and have all these shortened extra innings really saved arms? I've seen no data to suggest even a correlation and arm injuries continue to rise. Thus, one of the largest excuses for this abomination - player safety - is entirely vaporus it turns out.
The fact that this is not used in the postseason says it all. "Well, we certainly don't want to use THIS arbitrary gimmick when the games really matter...right? I mean, we"ll leave the zero impact shift ban in place, but a runner on 2nd is simply a bridge too far!"
Look, this was ostensibly introduced as a temporary risk reduction mechanism during the pandemic. It's expiration date has expired and it's time to rid this blight from the game and employ a new mission statement moving forward... leave-the-game-alone.
So much deserving of comment! First off, I couldn’t disagree more (cut to Kevin Pollak - “What does that mean, you strenuously object?”) I certainly appreciate the fact you made the only reasonable argument in favor, which is saving pitchers’ arms. The problem is that it doesn’t seem to be actually doing that. MLB’s own report on the topic shows a very obvious and extended spike in Tommy John surgeries starting immediately after the 2020 implementation.
https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-releases-report-on-pitcher-injuries-2024?adobe_mc=TS%253D1780692389%257CMCMID%253D48713880012295182455075758403906872747%257CMCAID%253D27C7C5FA85162086-400001A460000ABF%257CMCORGID%253DA65F776A5245B01B0A490D44%2540AdobeOrg&affiliateId=mlbapp-ios_webview_news-index&rsid=mlbios.at.bat.new.implementation
Admittedly, most of the increase is from the minors, but nevertheless it certainly doesn’t appear that reducing extra inning pitches is doing much here.
Aesthetically the free runner is just an abomination, and in my 55+ years going to baseball games, I’ve never once thought the experience could be improved by spending less time at the ballpark. The days that I inevitably remember most have always been double-headers (RIP) and extended extra inning affairs. What a way to spend a full day!
Thanks for some interesting posts!
Thank you John and thanks for joining the conversation. Baseball is so differently played today than it was 55 years ago. Shorter games mean fresher bullpens (than would be the case without the shorter games), and a better brand of baseball results over the long haul. Eventually there will be a generation of ballplayers who never played anything but extra innings without a baserunner placed instead of having earned the base. But at least in the playoffs and 18 inning game can happen!
Thanks Doug! I expected that there were many who don't feel the way I do. Your point is right about 'how did he get to second base'? It's the thing that bothers everyone (including me) most about the rule. I don't have a fix either and as most do, am at least grateful that the playoffs are played straight up! As a side note it's interesting that fans don't seem to feel the outcomes are skewed with the runner on second. It just feels weird. Maybe pushing it to start in the 11th inning would be a middle ground?
Great debate topic, Mark!
I am still a bit torn about this rule. I understand the desire to avoid an interminable tie-fest but I also loved how it played out in last year’s World Series or in my childhood during a Reds-Mets game at Shea Stadium. My biggest issue is not about the time, it is that someone gets on base and you cannot explain how they got there. Something eats at me that he did not earn his way on. It is so hard to hit in this game or just get on base. Extras not only make it easy, they make it an entitlement.
I support the pace of game initiatives and they have been successful so I tip my cap. The extra inning zombie runner is akin to playing football and it all coming down to the kicker. We accept that as part of football but it is like two different sports happened in the same game. :)
I don’t have a fix so I roll with it but after all these years, it is still strange to me.
Harvey Haddix pitched 9 perfect innings against the Braves in 1959. The game was a 0-0 tie. So, he came out and pitched the 10th. The 11th. The 12th. All perfect. He lost his no-hitter, and the game, in the 13th.
You wanted him to start the 10th with a man on 2nd, and maybe lose the game on 2 fly outs. Bah!!!
True that I would not have wanted that had I been watching in 1959!
Nope. Still gonna complain. [insert “Old Man Yells at Clouds” meme here]
Oh, and FWIW, I’m team Manfred Man.
Thanks Tim. I was happy to see your take No way I was going to get by without someone calling me out!
It's different in Japan. The maximum number of innings a game can last is 12. If neither teams has the lead, the game ends in a tie. Honestly, I prefer that to the zombie runner.
Americans are apparently not good with ties. But there's an argument to be made for playing things straight up through 12 innings!